Bruxy Cavey

OK, so here is the long-awaited interview with Bruxy Cavey.  I hope you enjoy it.  I did.  I love his answers!

(BTW, in case you didn’t know Bruxy is the teaching pastor at The Meeting House and the author of The End of Religion.)

Irreligious Canuck: Let’s begin with a fun question.  Tell us in one sentence or less what you have learned from the following people:

Bruxy:

N.T. Wright: We must be vigorous to understand Jesus in his Jewish historical context or else we will tend to project our own ideals into his teaching.

Homer Simpson: Somebody other than God really understands me.

Brian McLaren: Gentleness and Respect really do look good on a person.

Your wife Nina : Brains and beauty really can coexist. (And/Or… Good humour needs no secondary justification. It is self-justifying. Laughter is just good.)

Your best friend (Greg): The simple life is the good life.

Modandas Gandhi: Jesus’ teaching should be taken seriously.

The Dalai Lama: Smile!

I.C.: Here are some questions about your book.

What is the book about?

Bruxy: Jesus.

I.C.: Why did you write this book?

Bruxy: I’m not one of those people who have always wanted to write a book. To be plainly honest – I hate writing. But I love Jesus, and I want to do my part to get his message as wide an exposure as possible. At our church, The Meeting House, we felt together that it could be useful to gather up some of the teaching we’ve been processing over the years and make it available in book form. Some people will learn about Jesus best by being invited to a lecture. Others will learn best in dialogue. Others will read a book. So I was commissioned by my church to write The End of Religion as a tool for our church to use to help better communicate the message of Jesus

I.C.: Who did you write the book for?

Bruxy: There are lots of books written to Christians about how to explain the Good News of Jesus to their non-Christian friends. I wanted a book to function as a bridge-builder between Christians and non-Christians; a book that was addressed directly to non-Christians yet which Christians could also read and be challenged by.

I.C.: What do you hope is the outcome for writing this book?

Bruxy: My hope is that The End of Religion can function as a kind of meeting place for people of diverse spiritual backgrounds to come together and talk about this central figure of history and his radical spirituality. I have already received wonderful feedback about how this is happening in book clubs and other venues and it does my heart good to know the book is being put to such good use.

I.C.: In the book you talk about the “Water and Wine Scandal.” Jesus’ first public miracle at the wedding in Cana is an illustration of how he undermines religion. Can you give us another example from Jesus’ life where he undermines religion?

Bruxy: Jesus challenged the religion of his day in five areas: Torah, Tradition, Territory, Tribe, and Temple. Here are some examples.

Torah: Jesus challenged religious people’s blind allegiance to the letter of the Law by inviting a healed man to carry his mat on the Sabbath (something forbidden by the prophet Jeremiah), by touching lepers when healing them (against Levitical law), overriding Moses’ divorce and remarriage laws, and by undoing kosher rules (declaring all foods clean). In so doing, Jesus taught first-century Jews a radically new way to approach, interpret, and apply their own Scriptures. A lesson that we should still apply today as Christians.

Tradition: Jesus railed against the “tradition of the elders” in Mark 7, saying that religious people tend to put tradition ahead of God’s own will. To make his point, he regularly broke with the expected behavioural norms of his day.

Territory: In a world of geo-political kingdoms at war with one another, Jesus claimed to be inaugurating a Kingdom that was not of this world. This Kingdom of God would be a trans-national, multi-ethnic, family of faith, calling all people out of their territorial battles and into an identity group that would transcend all borders and boundaries.

Tribe: In a kinship-based culture dominated by an ethnic-based religion, Jesus claimed that whoever followed God’s will was his real family. This set the stage for the New Testament church to call each other brother and sister and really mean it, even across the dominant lines of racial, political, and socio-economic divisions. The radical diversity-in-unity of the early Church was an unprecedented sociological miracle.

Temple: Jesus replaced the entire religious system of temple sacrifice with himself. He claimed his own body was the temple, that his life was the final sacrifice, and that he was the one offering it to God as would a priest. His followers would then say that they were now the Temple of God together, all being priests to one another. This made the entire edifice of the religion of their day redundant.

I.C.:Now, I have some questions that are not directly related to the book.  What would you say to Christians who are not sure that attending weekly church services is helping them follow Jesus?

Bruxy: Find a church community that not only challenges you to grow, but that invites you to partner with them to reach out to others.

I.C.: How do you remain “irreligious” yet remain in the church?

Bruxy: Being “irreligious” is about a heart disposition that refuses to turn any one structure into an idol. No religious structures or systems of worship are sacrosanct. But that doesn’t mean that structure itself is wrong. Structure is a servant of the Church, the Body of Christ. To paraphrase Jesus, “Structure was made for us, not us for structure.” Being organized can be a good thing. But turning any one organization or organizational pattern into something untouchable in its centrality is fundamentally anti-Christ.

I.C.: There is a growing movement in our society of Christians who stop attending church services. Do you have anything you would like to say to this group of people?

Bruxy: If church is just about attending, then I would stop too. But it should be less about just showing up and more about living together, doing life together, challenging and supporting each other as spiritual family, and reaching out to the community as a force of radical grace and generosity. Church should include face-to-face fellowship and shoulder-to-shoulder partnership in reaching out to others in need. If it has just become a matter of sitting and listening and maybe singing, then something should change. That might mean leaving one church to find one that is a better fit, or it might mean becoming an agent for change and reform within your current church. Either way, don’t give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing, but continue to find ways to spur one another on to love and good deeds.

I.C.: What book are you reading now and what are some books that you are planning to read soon?

Bruxy: I’m reading N.T. Wright’s Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church
in preparation for our series on life after death.

I.C.: In 1-3 sentences, why should anyone be a follower of Jesus? (Or, what is the purpose of a Christian life?)

Bruxy: Jesus most clearly shows us God’s heart, offers us reconciliation for our broken relationship with the Divine, and teaches us a new, irreligious-yet-passionately-spiritual way of living. Why look anywhere else?

I.C.: And finally, here are three questions from our blog readers:

1) Religion as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary is: 1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. Doesn’t saying that we are not “religious” just confuse the person with whom we are trying to communicate? Shouldn’t we rather think of “religion” as being either the structure through which your “faith” or “relationship” is able to take expression, or the set of beliefs that guide your expression of your faith?

Bruxy: This person should start reading my book back-to-front. These are the issues I address in my last chapter and appendices. For now I will simply point out that we are under no obligation to use or defend an English word that is fraught with misunderstanding and falls woefully short of adequately labeling the life-changing message of Jesus. This is true especially when we find that the Bible does not provide an equivalent word the way we use the word “religion” today. In fact, in a beautiful play on concepts, James says that the only religion God cares about is that we live in loving ways every day of our lives. That is as “religious” as the God of the Bible would want us to become.

2) Is there tension in teaching inside an institution when many of your messages speak against that very institution? What keeps you from walking away from the traditional setting of the church when so much of it is religion and does not follow the teachings of Jesus?

Bruxy: Thankfully, I’m part of an Anabaptist movement (the Brethren In Christ) that is always open to change and renewal. We don’t view the church as the enemy, but our own human propensity for legalism and rigidity. As I mentioned above, we see structure and organization as a servant of the message, but not an indispensible part of that message. This is a very freeing and rewarding way of living in Christian community.

3) I see people who loathe religion but yet they seem to be attracted to cults. In your opinion, why does that happen?

Bruxy: It seems to me that many people feel betrayed by traditional religion, especially the warring, judgmental, violent religion that claims to worship someone they know as the “Prince of Peace”. At the same time, I am convinced that God has wired all people for relationship with himself. So, many people who reject traditional religion still hunger for a deeper connection with God. This is a beautiful and dangerous place to be, since these people will often settle for whatever non-traditional spiritual message they encounter first. As Christ-followers, our commission is to get His message out there and to help make disciples.

So there you have it!  What do you think? Leave comments below . . . (who knows? – maybe Bruxy himself will respond )

Also here is the link for the book site http://www.theendofreligion.org/ where you can listen to podcasts, learn more about the book and join in the conversation.

Thank you, Bruxy, for agreeing to do this for us.  I know this will be helpful for all of us in our journey.