Comments on: Migrating to New Church Paradigms http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/migrating-to-new-church-paradigms closing the gap between Jesus Christ and the church Fri, 03 Sep 2010 16:04:08 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.1 hourly 1 By: iCanuck http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/migrating-to-new-church-paradigms/comment-page-1#comment-497 iCanuck Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:36:12 +0000 http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/?p=1423#comment-497 Tim, thanks for sharing. It's really too bad that people have to put labels like, "divisive" on anyone. How many "divisive" people are really trying to be divisive, I wonder? My guess is that, more often than not, they are just trying to be open, honest, and helpful. I have talked with people who have been in similar situations as you but were not able to make the leap to "act out what they believe" because it would mean that they would lose their paycheck. It is hard to just go and find a new job (especially these days) when you spent a long time in training and preparing to work in the institution - it almost leaves you with no skills to find jobs outside of the church. So, it's great that you have been able to do that! Your "100% Church" sounds awesome! Tim, thanks for sharing. It’s really too bad that people have to put labels like, “divisive” on anyone. How many “divisive” people are really trying to be divisive, I wonder? My guess is that, more often than not, they are just trying to be open, honest, and helpful.
I have talked with people who have been in similar situations as you but were not able to make the leap to “act out what they believe” because it would mean that they would lose their paycheck. It is hard to just go and find a new job (especially these days) when you spent a long time in training and preparing to work in the institution – it almost leaves you with no skills to find jobs outside of the church. So, it’s great that you have been able to do that! Your “100% Church” sounds awesome!

]]> By: Tim http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/migrating-to-new-church-paradigms/comment-page-1#comment-484 Tim Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:59:59 +0000 http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/?p=1423#comment-484 Thirty years ago I was a -2. I had just "felt" the "call to the ministry" and was in a Pastoral Ed major in college. Within 1 year I was at -1. When I heard what a Pastor was to do and be and saw what the scriptures said a Pastor should do and be I saw glaring contradiction all over the place. I went to my first church as a youth pastor determined to follow the truth and not succum to traditions pressures. Within 2 years I was "asked to resign". What that means is I am asked to tell the church folks God is calling me to blah - blah and so I am leaving. This is asking me to lie since I have heard no call to anywhere else. I lied. I am now at 0. I have learned many more reasons why institutionalized faith is systematized lukewarmness. At this point I make the decision to move from "expecting the right to be paid" to "refusing the right to be paid" to help others grow spiritually. 1 Cor. 9 I see freedom and rewards from serving "free of charge" like Paul modeled worth far more than a pay check and a title. I will be at 0 for 15 years being a good layman volunteering in an almost mega church. Year after year I learn new ways institutional forms nullify God's commands but I am unwilling to show the Word to anyone. Finally God shows me I am pouring thousands of $ into the offering plate each year to buy expert driven programs that benefit mostly me and other wealthy saints. I have been pooling rather than giving. Only a small percentage of my giving is going beyond my self (25% of less). Finally God gives me courage to speak to the pastor, staff, and lay folks showing the simple scripture. Within 2years we are labeled "divisive" by the Board chair and the Admin Pastor. We realize it's time to start living what we believe as well as talk it so we got out of institutional forms and began to build what I now call 100% church. 1. 100% of giving goes beyond me and my family. (No pooling, just giving.) 2. 100% two-way-mutual communication (no lecture - God never speaks in one-way communication.) 3. 100% one another oriented relationships (no pyramid of power) 4. 100% reproductive leadership (No titles or turf. It's all given away to others.) That's a beginning. I guess I'm at +2. I am sure there is probably a +10 out there so I am keeping my heart open for further transformation. My heart grieves for the saints I know stuck at -2, many of them pastors and missionaries. I marvel at how slick and subtle the institutional form substitutes men's preferred traditions for God's truth, and calling it all truth. The web of deceipt wrapped around this form is sticky, tight, and glittery. It's easy to buy into it, get stuck and love it. Not any more for me and my family. Thirty years ago I was a -2. I had just “felt” the “call to the ministry” and was in a Pastoral Ed major in college. Within 1 year I was at -1. When I heard what a Pastor was to do and be and saw what the scriptures said a Pastor should do and be I saw glaring contradiction all over the place. I went to my first church as a youth pastor determined to follow the truth and not succum to traditions pressures. Within 2 years I was “asked to resign”. What that means is I am asked to tell the church folks God is calling me to blah – blah and so I am leaving. This is asking me to lie since I have heard no call to anywhere else. I lied. I am now at 0. I have learned many more reasons why institutionalized faith is systematized lukewarmness. At this point I make the decision to move from “expecting the right to be paid” to “refusing the right to be paid” to help others grow spiritually. 1 Cor. 9 I see freedom and rewards from serving “free of charge” like Paul modeled worth far more than a pay check and a title. I will be at 0 for 15 years being a good layman volunteering in an almost mega church. Year after year I learn new ways institutional forms nullify God’s commands but I am unwilling to show the Word to anyone. Finally God shows me I am pouring thousands of $ into the offering plate each year to buy expert driven programs that benefit mostly me and other wealthy saints. I have been pooling rather than giving. Only a small percentage of my giving is going beyond my self (25% of less). Finally God gives me courage to speak to the pastor, staff, and lay folks showing the simple scripture. Within 2years we are labeled “divisive” by the Board chair and the Admin Pastor. We realize it’s time to start living what we believe as well as talk it so we got out of institutional forms and began to build what I now call 100% church. 1. 100% of giving goes beyond me and my family. (No pooling, just giving.) 2. 100% two-way-mutual communication (no lecture – God never speaks in one-way communication.) 3. 100% one another oriented relationships (no pyramid of power) 4. 100% reproductive leadership (No titles or turf. It’s all given away to others.) That’s a beginning. I guess I’m at +2. I am sure there is probably a +10 out there so I am keeping my heart open for further transformation. My heart grieves for the saints I know stuck at -2, many of them pastors and missionaries. I marvel at how slick and subtle the institutional form substitutes men’s preferred traditions for God’s truth, and calling it all truth. The web of deceipt wrapped around this form is sticky, tight, and glittery. It’s easy to buy into it, get stuck and love it. Not any more for me and my family.

]]> By: iCanuck http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/migrating-to-new-church-paradigms/comment-page-1#comment-482 iCanuck Wed, 01 Jul 2009 00:47:13 +0000 http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/?p=1423#comment-482 Wolfgang, I have edited the post to say that I had misunderstood you. While I personally think the house church model is great and has SO much potential, I know that it is not really about the church. I love how you phrased it, "moving from an ecclesiocentric worldview to a kingdom-centric life". I'm sure that there are house churches that are still not choosing the right priorities, just as many traditional forms of churches are making the same mistakes. By the way, for the benefit of my readers . . . Wolfgang Simson's book "Houses That Change the World" is a book you would really love! I appreciated many things about the book, but one of the things I benefited from is his exploration of the Apostle,Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist and Teacher roles that are necessary in EVERY church community. Here is a link to some of his writings: <a href="http://www.simsonwolfgang.de/html/welcome.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.simsonwolfgang.de/html/welcome.html</a> On another note, "Wolf" is an awesome name! :) Wolfgang, I have edited the post to say that I had misunderstood you. While I personally think the house church model is great and has SO much potential, I know that it is not really about the church. I love how you phrased it, “moving from an ecclesiocentric worldview to a kingdom-centric life”. I’m sure that there are house churches that are still not choosing the right priorities, just as many traditional forms of churches are making the same mistakes.

By the way, for the benefit of my readers . . . Wolfgang Simson’s book “Houses That Change the World” is a book you would really love! I appreciated many things about the book, but one of the things I benefited from is his exploration of the Apostle,Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist and Teacher roles that are necessary in EVERY church community. Here is a link to some of his writings: http://www.simsonwolfgang.de/html/welcome.html

On another note, “Wolf” is an awesome name! :)

]]> By: Wolf Simson http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/migrating-to-new-church-paradigms/comment-page-1#comment-479 Wolf Simson Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:35:26 +0000 http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/?p=1423#comment-479 Hi Joel, just a quick thing: I am not saying the "the house church" is the new paradigm to whioch we all have to flock; what I am saying that a kingdom shaped church - of which house church is a vital part - is the future. Its all about moving from an ecclesiocentric worldview to a kingdom-centric life and move on from there. Blessings, like your site, Wolfgang Simson Hi Joel, just a quick thing: I am not saying the “the house church” is the new paradigm to whioch we all have to flock; what I am saying that a kingdom shaped church – of which house church is a vital part – is the future. Its all about moving from an ecclesiocentric worldview to a kingdom-centric life and move on from there. Blessings, like your site,
Wolfgang Simson

]]> By: Cynthia http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/migrating-to-new-church-paradigms/comment-page-1#comment-413 Cynthia Tue, 16 Jun 2009 05:01:54 +0000 http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/?p=1423#comment-413 Oh I am most definately at point -1 No doubt about it...I am tied to the old system at this point because it happens to be what I do on Sundays. In my herat I am at 0 though! Oh I am most definately at point -1 No doubt about it…I am tied to the old system at this point because it happens to be what I do on Sundays. In my herat I am at 0 though!

]]> By: iCanuck http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/migrating-to-new-church-paradigms/comment-page-1#comment-411 iCanuck Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:57:03 +0000 http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/?p=1423#comment-411 Issy, thanks for your comment. 0 is OK! Many people have been there before (myself included) and, more often than not, good things come as a result. Soon, I plan to post some resources to help people that are in the wilderness. Issy, thanks for your comment. 0 is OK! Many people have been there before (myself included) and, more often than not, good things come as a result. Soon, I plan to post some resources to help people that are in the wilderness.

]]> By: iCanuck http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/migrating-to-new-church-paradigms/comment-page-1#comment-410 iCanuck Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:55:42 +0000 http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/?p=1423#comment-410 Mike, yes your church community does sound like a good one from the little you have told me before. That's great. Your insight about the whole cycle starting all over again is interesting. Perhaps someone climbs back to at plus +2 but then they begin seeing the other side of the mountain and begin the descent down the other side! Interesting. I also think that some people "progress" to a zero, and then may climb back to a "-1" sometimes. What I like about the idea though, is the assumption that changes happen and it's not always a bad thing. I was in the wilderness for a while and now I am somewhere above the valley between -1 and +1 (just hovering in the air!) :) Can't quite decipher where I am exactly right now. Mike, yes your church community does sound like a good one from the little you have told me before. That’s great. Your insight about the whole cycle starting all over again is interesting. Perhaps someone climbs back to at plus +2 but then they begin seeing the other side of the mountain and begin the descent down the other side! Interesting. I also think that some people “progress” to a zero, and then may climb back to a “-1″ sometimes. What I like about the idea though, is the assumption that changes happen and it’s not always a bad thing.

I was in the wilderness for a while and now I am somewhere above the valley between -1 and +1 (just hovering in the air!) :) Can’t quite decipher where I am exactly right now.

]]> By: Issy http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/migrating-to-new-church-paradigms/comment-page-1#comment-409 Issy Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:20:37 +0000 http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/?p=1423#comment-409 My husband and I are at 0 right now and it's getting scary. My husband and I are at 0 right now and it’s getting scary.

]]> By: Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/migrating-to-new-church-paradigms/comment-page-1#comment-408 Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:10:27 +0000 http://www.irreligiouscanuck.com/?p=1423#comment-408 Hi Joel, I am at about -1.5. Pretty happy where I am, realizing that it is not perfect, but not clamouring for a new paradigm either. I do have concerns about people who move to point +2, and then realize that they are back at -2, only with a new paradigm, and the cycle begins again. Hi Joel,

I am at about -1.5. Pretty happy where I am, realizing that it is not perfect, but not clamouring for a new paradigm either. I do have concerns about people who move to point +2, and then realize that they are back at -2, only with a new paradigm, and the cycle begins again.

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