iCanuck

Comments

1. 
   On July 18, 2009 tommy ab says:

   Hi,

   I’m new to this blog. Good stuff ! thank you.
   (I am a brother from Quebec province, my english can be bad, i’m sorry… )

   The first question does not make sense in my mind because we cannot “go to” church. The church is not a place. This we all know, but we often do not act according to this knowing. We really act as if the place we gather is important, sacred and holy.

   This point said, I gather with brothers and sisters in Christ for many reasons. One of them is to BE the church, the ecclesia. I cannot be a christian (litteraly: little Christ) alone. I cannot live what is described in Acts by myself. It is one of the big myth of this individualistic society and christianity, that we can be autonomous individuals and christians, that by knowing many things i will be closer to God and do His will, that by doing things for God I will please Him and be useful.

   Colossians 1:27 “… God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. ” Does Paul talk to one christians ? no he talks to the church. When ChristianS are together they can reveal Christ.

   John 17: 20-21 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. ”

   Preaching could be useful, but if that Jesus’s prayer is not real among us in our everyday life (I’m not talking about oecumenical crap, ….) , our preaching will be no use, hypocrit, theoritical, deceitful, waste of time and energy, seen as suspicious, , …

   Now, about the “video preaching”,… nothing wrong,… but again, another “hype” church buzz following the same so human way of thinking: that methods are the point. It reminds me of all the noise and stupid evangelicals enthousiasm that happened with the release of the famous Mel Gibsons movie, the Passion….

   All this talking about “generations”, about how today people are to be reached with new methods, because “the world has changed”…. let’s just read Ecclesiast (”nothing new under the sun”). Every generation will rise and think that the world is so different …

   having said that, I use it personnaly,… it can be useful. Not good, not bad.

   if it isolates christians from one another… then it is bad. If it perpetuates the passiveness of christians listeners , it is bad (like every preaching…)
   Knowing Christ is not so much about knowing facts that a preacher can bring to me, It is more about knowing my brothers and sisters, and learning to know Christ IN them.

   tommy,
   tommy_a_b@yahoo.ca

2. 
   On July 18, 2009 Andy says:

   I talked to a Christian businessman in Japan about 2 years ago who was taking steps to do the same thing here. He was calling it Internet church. He wanted to have sermons from the best preachers in Japan available for anyone online. This is a guy who spends most of his energy reading the Bible with non-Christian businessmen, although he does (or did) attend a traditional church.

   My reaction 2 years ago was lukewarm. What, after all, are the best preachers going to talk about? If you’re just replaying their typical sermons, that might not work for people who are really out of the box.

   As for the rest, I can see this as another step in the progression toward new forms of church in North America.

   Personally, I’d be interested in preachers/teachers who would do this simply to follow Jesus, with or without financial help. Wayne Jacobsen has been providing talks on CD and via download for years in this way, and countless people have used them wherever they may meet.

3. 
   On July 18, 2009 Cynthia says:

   I go to church for many reasons. Right now it is because I want my children to experience the same sense of loving , supportive Christian community that I had growing up. They walk in and people touch their heads and ask them how they are. If the boys take part in service they are affirmed with kind words. Their Sunday School teacher has been leading children into a deeper walk with God for 30 years. There is a comfort there and a sense of belonging to something very special. So for me, the video service would not replace the Sunday morning sermon. My pastor knows his people. He prays and asks God, what does this group need? I woud be interested in supplementing my pastors sermon with a jaw dropping sermon from a top preacher mid week…but not replacing it.

4. 
   On July 19, 2009 Jon Reid says:

   I love the question it raises: “Wait, why do we gather?” And “What is the purpose of the local church?”

5. 
   On July 20, 2009 Ian says:

   well, yeah i’d have a problem with video sermons from across the country. that person isn’t involved in the struggle around me like the homilist is from my own little community. i don’t see and hear the struggles of that far off sermonizer like i see and hear the struggles of my neighbour trying to encourage me to be faithful in my little journey.

   but i have some “issues” with the whole super-church idea. i also don’t go to church because i’m itching to hear a sermon. i go to share in my own community life, to encourage and be encouraged on the path we’ve chosen.

6. 
   On July 20, 2009 tommy ab says:

   totally agree with Ian
   i would add that if i’m gathering with my brothers and sisters in order to receive, i will sooner or later be disapointed… if i trust them to fulfill my needs, i will be unsatisfied… (i could for sure have the illusion to be satisfied)… it could be an idolatry (”Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the Lord.” Jeremiah 17)
   there is more joy to give than to receive…
   Christ is my only satisfaction, and Christ is revealed through his church.

7. 
   On July 20, 2009 iCanuck says:

   Tommy, welcome!

   You are right when you say that sermons can perpetuate a passive faith among the listeners. Knowing facts is not all that important, is it? Remembering that the English word “know” in the Old Testament is often a translation of the Hebrew when it was used in the sense of a husband and wife “knowing” each other (wink ,wink). Knowledge in this sense of the word is not about facts but about knowing someone intimately, sexually, personally!

   Thanks for starting this discussion!

8. 
   On July 20, 2009 iCanuck says:

   Well, at least we don’t need to gather to hear good preaching!

9. 
   On July 21, 2009 tommy ab says:

   i hope you won’t be fooled by confort

10. 
    On July 23, 2009 Tim says:

    tommy ab & Ian
    Amen to your key points.
    After hearing thousands of “sermons” and going to college to be a sermon giver, and many years of struggling to figure out why lecture oriented preaching by a hired expert produces such high levels of lukewarmness and spiritual mediocrity, God has helped me to see that this kind of “preaching” is not at all what God has asked for in His revelation. Scripture is full of “preaching” and teaching, but nowhere is it specified as one-way communication and only by a hired expert.

    God never communicates with us in one-way communication. He is a two-way communication God. He loves direct, heartfelt feed back.

    Tradition has locked in most believers minds that preaching is ALWAYS lecturing. Anything else would not be preaching. The deceiver has lured God’s people into cannonizing a bogus substitute for God’s design. No one else could pull off this huge sucker job.

    God is full of grace and is able to use this form of preaching in spite of it’s corruption, but he longs for His people to figure out the tragedy it produces. In the preaching = lecture by a hired expert system (institutional church), it is not more important for believers to hear 500 – 2000 sermons than for those who have never heard the gospel and have no one withing 2 days journey to tell them even once.

    The reason I say the system makes this priority a reality is because 75% of the giving is consumed making the pulpit/pew thing happen leaving only 25% or less to devote to reaching all nations. That makes professional sermons for believers every week of their lives 3 times more important. This is a travesty.

    TV preaching, video preaching, Internet preaching, and pulpit preaching are all the same – a bad substitute for God’s design for every-member- proclaiming / preaching. “You ARE a royal priesthood that you may proclaim the glories of Him who called you out of darkness into light.”

    It doesn’t matter how much you like it, how much you have learned, how many people have been saved, etc. Everyone is left short changed when they settle for substitutes of God’s design. “The greatest danger is not that we will renounce our faith, but that we will settle for a mediocre version of it.”

11. 
    On July 23, 2009 Tim says:

    Sorry, I made a significant typo:
    ” In the preaching = lecture by a hired expert system (institutional church), it is NOW more important for believers to hear 500 – 2000 sermons than for those who have never heard the gospel and have no one withing 2 days journey to tell them even once.”

12. 
    On July 25, 2009 Whitey says:

    The one thing lacking from these preaching videos, as has been touched on, is relationship. A pastor knows his congregation and the particular needs they and the community are dealing with. And… we “go to church” to meet with one another, not just hear a message and go home. Hopefully it’s more than just a social meeting, and real community is taking place. But watching church online is not the same.

13. 
    On August 03, 2009 Tim says:

    Why do so many pastors conferences and magazines talk about pastor burn out so often? Why do pastors run off to pastors conferences to “be fed and motivated”, unable to learn and grow from the saints with whom the are partners?
    It’s because systemically, the clergy system sets up a very surface, professionally distant dynamic that is mostly the rule. This is what I was taught by expert preachers of our day in preacher school. It was my first clue that the system is corrupted from God’s design. Can 1 man have a mutually dynamic relationship with 25 men, with 50 men, with a thousand? No, he cannot. The surveys show that the pastors discipleship ministry is the lowest time priority in the pastors schedule. For sure, there is a lot of hand shaking, joking, and other social graces going on with regularity. But not mutual building relationships. Thus the need to go outside the church for encouragement and emotional support from men he sees once or twice a year. The old metaphor of the intelligent shepherd relationship with the spiritually dumb dependent sheep giving basis for no mutuality is a bogus idea not taught by the scriptures. Paul had complete confidence that the Ephesian elders (businessmen) could grow to do ministry just like him Acts 20. Paul was looking for 3 generations of reproduction of his ministry – Paul -> Timothy -> faithful men -> others. 2 Tim. 2:1,2 . The institutional church is systematized in perpetual dependency that arises from shallow relationships built into the system. How can a relationship grow in mutuality when the most focused on event in church life is dominated by one-way communication?

14. 
    On August 05, 2009 steve says:

    Why are we so sermon focused anyway. Who said church has to be all about sermons. I’ve had enough sermons to last me a lifetime. Who’s going to mentor me into actually living it out. If only church focused on community instead of buildings, budgets, and unsaid rules and expectations.

15. 
    On August 05, 2009 Ordinary Guy says:

    Well, I don’t go to church. I used to, but stopped about a year and a half ago. I miss the friendship (fellowship) the most. Sure, I love a good sermon, just like I love a good motivational speaker. I’ve just discovered, that motivation doesn’t last too long once you get outside the door. It fades too quickly. True discipleship is what I desire. So far as sermons on the internet, sure, go for it. We’re all at different stages, and eat different food. (Some like sermon food, some reading the word, some fellowship, etc, but the important thing is all food should striengthen our Spirit.)

    And, so far as the fellowship I’m missing…sad to say, if the friendships I had in church were “real” we would still be friends today wouldn’t we?

16. 
    On August 05, 2009 Tim says:

    “Why are we so sermon focused anyway”? Bad traditions kept in place by comfort zone protections that lure away from taking up the cross. I have funded and heard too many sermons as well. God’s design for two-way, mutual communication of truth is far better, but harder work for all involved. It requires walking by faith. Sitting in a pew only requires walking by sight.
    “Who’s going to mentor me…”? And who will you mentor as well? Ask God to direct you to some brothers who see the failure of the old system and are ready for God’s design. I asked God for this and He delivered, with some perseverance on my part.

17. 
    On August 05, 2009 tommyab says:

    what you are saying Tim is really encouraging . Thanks !

    I would compare our situation to the situation that the christians jews were living in early church. It is to them that the epistle to Hebrews was first sent. Their jewish heritage was so rich et full of beauty. Their traditions were so cherished and lovable. They were pride about it, and i would say they were right to be. They felt confortable and secure in it. (we read in Philippians 3 Paul’s testimony about his jewish heritage,… it is quite moving when we understand what it means to a jew to be a jew…)

    The author of Hebrew have to demonstrate that Christ is better (Heb 7:22), is THE glorious one (1:1-6), more lovable, more confortable(4:16), more beautiful, greater than all the priests (5:5) and more important than Moses himself (3:3).

    An entire chapter is about faith. because this is the only way we can follow Christ.

    We should abandon our institutionnal christianity heritage as the the first century jewish christians had to leave their traditions. “… I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord” Phil 3

18. 
    On August 19, 2009 Al says:

    I tend to agree with those who see that ‘church’ isn’t so much about hearing as being and doing. I think we need a lot more opportunity to discuss and apply than we do to just listen to one person’s understanding/theology. I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit lately, and posted something recently. http://al-muses.blogspot.com/2009/08/rant-about-church-and-theology.html
    I’m actually looking for something less ‘churchy’ and more ‘community’ nearby, but haven’t been able to blend where I think God is aiming me with what I see around me.