Comments on: Dilemmas in the Institutionalization of Religion

By: iCanuck

iCanuck — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:12:21 +0000

Andy, Konnichiwa! No they are not saying we are stuck with institutionalism. (The book is GREAT, by the way.) They are pointing the out some of the problems with it. I don’t get the impression that they are looking from “inside the box” at all. There is a cool blog for the book and you can find it by google I’m sure you would enjoy it. Also, other essays by Alan Hirsch are posted at shapevine.com He’s a sharp thinker!

By: iCanuck

iCanuck — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:09:00 +0000

Cynthia, I think I understand well what you are saying. There was a time when I thought differently, but I do see a place for traditional churches. I should elaborate on that “place” here but I am finding it hard to be concise. Perhaps after I have thought of a good way to word what I am thinking, I can add that here as well.

By: iCanuck

iCanuck — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:05:18 +0000

Hi Tim,

Yes, it IS hard to wade through the article. That is precisely why I thought it would be helpful to include a very brief summary of it here.

To answer your question . . . no, he doesn’t discuss sin, powers of darkness or anything related. He approaches the topic from a sociological perspective and focuses on the institutionalization process. Although, that would be an interesting conversation to have sometime.

By: Tim

Tim — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:43:10 +0000

Cynthia
I’ve never objected to you going to an institutional church to do whatever God want there. Sometimes God calls me to walk in the door of one to encourage the saints there. My only objection is to what I perceive you saying it’s wrong to point out the errors, specify the deception for what it is, and that the errors aren’t really that bad so let’s all be nice about it. God is doing somethings in the institutional forms so that must mean God likes it. I’m just trying to help you see the errors there are grotesque and God is grieved by it. He cannot give out rewards for wood, hay or stubble. He wants us to produce gold.

Of course it’s a good thing to know and pray for the saints.
Of course it’s not a good idea to “demand that the whole congregation disband…”
There are many more options that God has called us all to do
1. Spur one another on to love and good works Heb. 10:24,25
2. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you… Col. 3:16,17
You can do organic church inside the walls… face to face and heart to heart.
“The closer the contact the more powerful the impact.”
You can lead saints, one by one, by your example, into ministry outside the walls. Ministry to the lost on their turf adds far more relevancy than any fine tuned “relevancy expert” can produce inside the walls.
You will see more how God wants to work through you as you understand better the schemes of the enemy. I’m hoping I have been helpful even though direct.

By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:27:49 +0000

Tim

It is commanded that we be intense about the household of faith!

If I were a hardcore “institutional” believer I would be trying my best to point out your need to rejoin the “club”. But I see that you have been led in another direction and I rejoice that you are where God woudl have you…a free believer within the body. Why can’t you grant me the same grace?

By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:23:15 +0000

Andy

That is exactly it! I was led back into a “club”. It looks like one and it feels like one so why am I there? Well when God called me back I told Him that I was afraid of getting all caught up in the busyness again…all the trappings that come with a “club” setting. God told me that my specific calling there is to pray for the pastor and for the people. He desires to become relevant to them so that they, in turn , can become relevant in the world. Can I demand that the whole congregation disband and leave the “insitution” in order to become vibrant and useful? Of course I can’t. Can I dictate the way they need to gather? No I can’t. But I cry out for them…as I am called to.

God also specifically told me that I am not to sign up for leading anything or to be part of a committee etc. My purpose there is to PRAY for that part of the body and that the building (small and irrelevant as it now is) will become a place where those who need Christ, will find Him reflected, preached and lived out. That is His will for me. It was and is not, my preference. But in laying down my life and picking up the cross, I don’t always get to ge where it feels good!

By: Andy

Andy — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:32:08 +0000

Joel – I have a question about the “irresolvable dilemma” quote. Are they saying we’re stuck with institutionalism, and the only solution is to be wary and have constant renewal? Something makes me feel like the authors are still looking out from inside a box. Sometimes with these authors who work with “emerging” or “missional” churches, I get the feeling they are still trying to justify and find a use for the forms they have chosen. But I haven’t read ReJesus and could be way off base. What do you think?

Cynthia – I see your heart, and I think you’re called to follow Jesus. If Jesus leads you back to the club, then so be it. We walk into clubs and institutions every day to meet people and share life; it doesn’t mean you’re selling out. Don’t be dismayed or get caught up in doctrinal arguments.

By: Tim

Tim — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:30:40 +0000

Cynthia
I read what you said about being out of the institutional church for awhile and how you “out grew your need for it” . That is a good step. Yet you fail to see how it contradicts God’s design or “life orientation” for Christ’s body. It doesn’t matter whether mega or mini. If it has at least one hired expert who will have to be replaced with another when he leaves, and a special building set up for one-way communication to dominate, then you have the essentials of the institutional system that forces believers stewardship of money, relationships, and spiritual gifts to be largely squandered, instead of reproductive. I don’t question that the saints in the system are sincere, friendly, and loving to a certain extent. I don’t question that God works in this system because He is full of grace that is long suffering and forbearing towards our sin and the weights that hinder us from running the race He has marked out for us. But none of these nice things should keep us from fully obeying all of His instructions for life in Christ, or re-examining the traditions handed down to us to see if they are true. Acts 17:11

I gave you above a couple specific examples of severe corruption in the system. You have not responded to them. You merely continue to try and help me see how caring and relational a small institutional church can be. Is it caring to devote 75 – 85% of your giving to buy services and facilities for yourselves? Is it relational to line up in pews for platform driven “worship” that contradicts God’s gifting of EVERYONE to participate through their gifts and 24/7 worship the previous 6 days of the week?

I hope it’s okay to be intense about the household of faith.

By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:12:08 +0000

Tim

That was an intense response! I was amused when you wrote

“I am not surprised that you would see anything that challenges the authenticity of institutionalized forms as “proliferation of derogatory terms”.

Tim, If you knew the journey I have been on you would indeed be surprised. I have spent quite a while outside the traditional walls of the church. I very much see the merits of the house church movement. But I was led back into the traditional church setting recently, not out of guilt but because God led me back.

Those who prefer the free believer or house church route will sometimes use the tern “institution” to describe the traditional church setting. I say it is derogatory because that word has come to be associated with negative experiences…such as “institutional day care” “institutional seniors housing”. It infers a cold, business like setting in which there is a lack of care and relationship.

Some mega churches may be that way. But America is filled with wonderful small churches that do the work of God in many ways.

By: Tim

Tim — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:58:27 +0000

Cynthia
No we don’t need to accept mediocrity or lukewarmness, that only “some” are “thriving”. God does not accept it. He has designed a system where ALL will thrive. And at what cost does it take them to “thrive”? Institutional forms demand that 75 – 85% of the “giving” be consumed by the “givers”. This is pooling not even giving. Giving goes beyond the giver. Putting money in the offering plate to buy a professionally prepared sermon and a special building for you and others who have a great need to participate rather than spectate is tragic! It keeps God’s people happy yet lazy and very dumbed down from God’s design.
I am not surprised that you would see anything that challenges the authenticity of institutionalized forms as “proliferation of derogatory terms”. From the very beginning of church Satan has brought in many false and idolatrous beliefs. Paul soundly refuted them such as the Galatian, Colossian and Corinthian churches. God’s Word is inspired for the specific purpose of “rebuke and correction” so that ALL may be THOROUGHLY equipped for EVERY good work. If the saints are not accomplishing this, they are not thriving. Do not look at what is said as negative or positive towards a church system. Look at what is said towards a church system as to whether it is true or false. Truth is often negative. Don’t try and protect sin that looks and feels good or has a mediocre amount of light. One of my favorite quotes is “the great danger is not that we will renounce our faith but that we will settle for a mediocre version of it.” If the Devil can lure God’s people into passivity via one-way communication instead of the participative two-way communication God has specifically asked for (Heb. 10:24,25; Col. 3:16, etc) than he has become successful.